Translator’s note: This is the final untranslated interview from Tokino Sora‘s first photo collection, Sorabiyori (first one here). Particularly interesting in its meta commentary about Sora as a VTuber – Oishi points out the strangeness of feeling “moe” for a VTuber and complements Sora’s devotion to avoiding breaking character – and the discussion about how VTuber culture interacts with anime culture. At one point Sora asks Oishi about songwriting, and we can imagine she’s thinking about her own desire to write and compose as she would soon do with “Aozora Symphony.” Further, anyone with an interest in the anime music scene as it exists in Japan will find something of interest here. Images and links have been added by me. Enjoy, and please consider buying this special book.
A dialogue between Tokino Sora and Oishi Masayoshi, known for being a famous composer in the anime song world. What are their thoughts on what VTubers can do and the future they can compose because they’re VTubers?
Oishi Masayoshi
Oishi started his activities around anime and game contents in 2014 under the name Oishi Masayoshi. He was a lead artist on the theme songs for popular anime Daiya no A [Ace of Diamond], Gekkan Shoujo Nozaki-kun and Tada-kun wa Koi wo Shinai and tokusatsu such as Ultraman R/B (Loop). He’s also active with the digital rock unit OxT that’s hit number one on various streaming sites including iTunes with the main theme for the anime SSSS.Gridman, “Union.” As a writer, he wrote and composed the main theme for 2017’s Kemono Friends, “Youkoso Japari Park e,” which became a big hit. Additionally, he’s also gained attention as a music creator from his making music for artists.
Their first appearance together where he had VTubers drilled into his head
—Oishi-san, you’re the lead MC on the VTuber specialty music program V-On!! Sora-chan’s appeared with you on that program.
Oishi: You were the guest on the first episode, right?
Sora: I was. I was the guest on the first episode. I had almost no experience appearing on a music program, so I was nervous…
Oishi: There weren’t yet that many music programs related to VTubers at that point. V-On!! is also broadcast live. That means you’ve got live performances too. That’s what seems to make everyone nervous.
Sora: I was really nervous. I’m not someone who’s that good at talking.
Oishi: I wouldn’t go that far.
Sora: I’m really not that good. There were a lot of times when you were helping me out.
Oishi: I didn’t know left from right at that point. The way they made the studio was also different from a real one. I hardly knew what the “A Pose” I had to get into to move my avatar meant. It was in that kind of situation that I feel like I had everything about VTubers drilled into my head.
Sora: D-drilled?! No way! (laughing)
Oishi: Of course, no one was saying “You’re gonna learn this!” All I felt was encouragement.
—What made you feel encouraged?
Oishi: Everything about how she carried herself. In her position as a guest, Tokino-san taught me everything about how a VTuber should be from square one. More than anything, I was desperate trying to move myself around during the program. I remember her supporting me then. I was so thankful.
Sora: I’m happy to hear that.
Oishi: Did you know who I was when you came on the program?
Sora: Of course I knew!
Oishi: Really? That’s great.
Sora: You make lots of wonderful music. I like music, and I love watching music programs. So I got to know about you through those. You being an artist, I was excited to know what kind of person you were. When you greeted me, you were really friendly and kind, so I was relieved and able to talk. I thought you were gentle.
Oishi: I’m glad! And this is rude, because I really didn’t know anything then, but… I remember being impressed not only by your talking and how you carried yourself, but by how well you could sing, and how much you had it together. I got to know lots of VTubers after that, and I realized how Tokino-san was orthodox, and how she shined because everything about her was so high status.
—Oishi-san, were VTubers an unknown world to you?
Oishi: I actually wanted to use what I didn’t know as a weapon. I knew VTubers seemed popular, and of course I knew the ones that had appeared on commercial television. But I didn’t really know about everyone who’d gained popularity after them. While I was MCing the show, when I eventually did some searching, there were a lot of times when I’d think, “I’ve heard of this, I’ve seen this” and “This trended on Twitter.” Pardon me for saying this, but there were a lot of times after the fact when I realized I’d been able to do the show with such an amazing person.
I want Tokino-san to remain orthodox
—VTubers have been growing in popularity. Their collaborations and discussions with real people have grown in number too.
Oishi: Tokino-san’s been talking with big people, hasn’t she. The other day she was chatting with Nozawa Masako-san.
—During the summer of 2019, the program airing on TOKYO FM that voice actor Nozawa Masako-san works as a personality on and Sora-san and Fuji Aoi’s program did a collaboration.
Sora: That was intense. I was frozen stiff, as quiet as a mouse.
Oishi: Of course, she’s a legend.
Sora: I didn’t know what to talk about, so I just kept responding with “Yes, yes.” But, we had a proper topic for the show, so while we were talking about the topic, I was able to talk normally for the second half.
Oishi: Among voice actors, you’ve also had dialogues with people like Ōhashi Ayaka-san and Ozaki Yuka-san, and you’ve made something with them too.
Sora: They took part in the drama CD with the first press limited edition of my debut album “Dreaming!” That connection allowed me to dialogue with them too.
—Sora-san, would you say that experience has gotten you used to discussions?
Sora: Not at all, I still have very little experience with them.
Oishi: They’re not easy to get used to. That goes for me too, I’ve been thinking over what I should talk about for this one. I know how it goes when it’s between men or creators, the types of discussion where the conversation just gets going, but when it came to crossing dimensions to talk with a VTuber of the opposite gender, I wasn’t sure what to do. By the way, you’re a leading figure within Hololive, aren’t you?
Sora: I don’t know if I’d say leading figure… I was the first one to debut with them.
Oishi: Before I knew it, I had a ton of Hololive VTubers following me on SNS. (Natsuiro) Matsuri-chan, (Shirakami) Fubuki-san, and (Minato) Aqua-chan for example. In Roboko-san’s case, it seems she even came to a show of mine.
Sora: That’s right!
Oishi: When you look at everyone in the virtual world, you’ve got some that are interesting because they’re free-spirited. But in a manner of speaking, you’re orthodox.
Sora: I’m not the kind of person who can get too crazy.
Oishi: As a fan, I’d like you to leave the crazy stuff to the kids, and for you to remain orthodox. I think there’s definitely an importance and a value to that kind of presence. I think that’s part of why I was happy that Tokino-san was the first guest to come on V-On!! I thought, here’s someone with proper form.
Sora: Proper form… I wonder if I’m getting there. Thank you.
—What about Sora-san makes you feel she’s orthodox?
Oishi: I’ve though, here’s someone who knows what not to say, and what’s better left unsaid. Most importantly, she maintains her own character and outlook when she’s talking. Of course, there are those who make it seem fun to break down those walls. But that’s not Tokino-san. I think that’s the orthodox position. Sifting through what’s she’s going to say in her mind, determining what’s good or bad to say in the moment. I was really moved by that when we were talking on V-On!!
—You also said you felt like she was high status.
Oishi: What surprised me was how Tokino-san conducted herself. Each gesture has something about it that draws you in. I think it’s incredible for me, as a real human, to be drawn to the gestures of a VTuber. Feeling moe towards a virtual woman isn’t something you can do unless you’ve got blood flowing through your fingertips. Just taking her gestures for example, I think, “She must have maxed her stats out on that.” Her talking skills, the way she comports herself, her live performances, all of it’s high status.
—Sora-san, are you intentional about being careful with how you act?
Sora: I am. When I say something, if I’m doing a livestream, I can’t take it back. I definitely think there are things that the people watching want to hear and things they don’t.
Oishi: Taking an approach that doesn’t ruin the dreams of one’s fans, that’s what an idol is. I was thinking, “virtual idols” exist.
—Have you made a study of gestures?
Oishi: That’s something I wanna hear!
Sora: More than studying, I learn from the comments of my viewers. At first, I wasn’t good at all at moving. But during streams, while referencing comments like “This gesture is cute!” and “I like this kind of pose,” I became able to do it little by little.
Oishi: So the viewers taught you. I see.
Sora: Also, I can’t dance at all.
Oishi: You danced really well on V-On!!
Sora: Really, I’m someone who can only move freely. But, if we’re at gachi ai kyouri I think, let’s try doing it like this, that kind of thing.
Oishi: Gachi ai kyouri, that’s something. Like the gachi ai angle.
—Gachi ai kyouri, gachi ai angle, that’s when you’re close up on the camera, at an angle where you’re looking up slightly, at a distance and an angle where you appear like real lovers.
Sora: A time I’ve done the gachi ai angle would be like when I’m singing a lyric that gets your heart racing, and I try getting a little closer to the camera.
Oishi: It’s like when I appeared on broadcast television and was paying attention to camera 1 and camera 2. The camera that was filming would have a red marker standing up on top. Remembering that from camera rehearsal, I did that too, like pointing at the right one when we were actually filming.
Sora: Sure. Like how, when I’ve rehearsed something once, I know how I’m going to move, so when the time comes I check to see I’m being filmed from and turn towards there.
Oishi: I always think, “This is something the person switching the camera and I are making.” That seems really similar. You’re a total pro.
Sora: Not at all, I’ve got a long way to go…
Oishi: VTuber history is just beginning. Having someone with this kind of professional character is a really heartening thing for the industry. That’s the reason I feel strongly about wanting Tokino-san to maintain that stance, and for her to stay that way forever.
Making VTubers something more familiar
—Do you have anything you’d like to ask Sora-san?
Oishi: Asking this to a VTuber seems strange, but… What do you think will happen with the VTubers who come next? If someone asked me, “What’s going to happen with anime songs?” I’d probably say, “No clue!” (laughing). But I wanted to try asking a VTuber themselves what they thought. With big concerts in lots of places and followers on Twitter and subscribers on YouTube going up across the board into the tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands, they’re really picking up, don’t you think?
Sora: This is vague, but… I wonder if VTubers might become a more familiar existence. This is my desire as well. VTubers up to now, they’ve only been seen online, so it’s hard for lots of people to do it easily.
Oishi: It’s pretty difficult to prepare the gate leading into the virtual.
Sora: Like you said before, carrying yourself that way has some complications exactly because it’s virtual. But I appeared in VTuber drama Watanuki-san chi no, and I think our movements and our existence there were the same as you and everyone else who’s real. So I hope that we become beings whose names come up in regular conversations like other personalities, with people saying, “Oh, that’s so-and-so the VTuber.” I want VTubers to become something everyone can become.
Oishi: That’s what you mean by real people easily becoming VTubers?
Sora: Yeah. Like when you come to our virtual world in V-On!! to host, I want the world to become a place where lots of people can mix together without barriers.
—Anyone can become a VTuber, so even if they weren’t active as a VTuber, people could come to the virtual world as spectators and mingle.
Sora: I’d be happy if people could just come to our world, and alternately I think it’d be fun if I could just jump out into the real world.
Oishi: It’s not just the future for VTubers, but the future for us as the end users as well. It really makes you dream big. The concept of end users entering the virtual is really moving to me.
Sora: Really? I think of we VTubers and everyone else as the same kind of beings.
Oishi: I think there’s only a handful of people in the world who are getting on well in reality. But in the virtual world you can make your dreams bloom and speak them. It’s really good to be able to have a place you belong. I wonder if that’s not creating a place for people to run to, but a lifeline for them. I was bullied when I was a first year in middle school. I wonder if I could have toughed it out better if I’d had a place like that. Though that sounds like the beginning of a light novel (laughing).
Sora: If we can get people to think about VTubers and the virtual world like that, as somewhere they can belong, I’d be happy. I don’t want them to think about it as something extraordinary.
Oishi: You want it to be something familiar that people can be close to. Although I think that for fans, VTubers already create a place where people can belong and act as a lifeline for them. But, if anyone could easily cross dimensions, they’d be able to feel even closer.
Sora: If that was the case, I think the existence of VTubers would definitely become something natural. Hatsune Miku is already that kind of being. I don’t want things to end as a fad.
Oishi: I totally get that! Anime songs are already something that go in and out of style… If you’re thinking, “I want the users to become VTubers too,” the way it’s spreading will totally change. We’ve been talking about users, but how are things going with VTubers themselves leaping over boundaries by doing stuff like appearing in dramas and becoming anime? Are you rubbing your hands together thinking about how you’ll cross the boundaries of the business next?
Sora: We’re gonna keep crossing them, one after another.
Oishi: For example, like having an anime title each season where a VTuber appears.
Sora: I’d like that, I really would. Right now, it’s just a small section of people who know that the amount of VTubers has increased. But with things like that, I think it will go out of style eventually. But if we’re on lots of programs, people will understand that there are VTubers like this or that, and the world will probably expand. Also, the people watching will have more fun because there are VTubers with a variety of personalities. That’s why I want VTubers appearing in programs from lots of genres. If we reach a point where VTubers are appearing in basically nothing, people will think, “I wonder if they’re all gone.”
Oishi: That’s real. Like with people who think, “That anime was popular, but there’s still no second season. I wonder if the production committee is having trouble getting investment money together.” Users will just assume this kind of stuff.
Sora: Even if that’s not what actually happened, there are lots people who will feel down about it. Even if we had just one program with VTubers appearing in it each season, we could have people thinking, “That one’s over, but this one’s still going, VTubers must still be growing.”
Oishi: VTubers are getting to the point where they can appear in mass media. I think it would be good for them to appear in more things too. I want people sitting in their living rooms to have a deeper understanding of what VTubers are.
—There are lots of VTubers who’ve covered anime songs. Oishi-san, from your perspective, what’s the relationship between VTubers and anime songs?
Oishi: First, anime song creators supplying music for VTubers has become more frequent. That “outflow” is becoming a problem in the creator world.
Sora: It is?
Oishi: There’s a high affinity between anime songs and VTubers. The virtual and 2D worlds are very close, and the boundary between them is low. And musically, there’s a high affinity between them and anime songs as well. Right now, various creators have started writing music for VTubers, so the business is starting to feel a sense of danger, wondering if that means a lack of people working on anime songs.
—You’ve heard this from other creators as well?
Oishi: Recently I was talking with Tabuchi (Tomoya)-kun from UNISON SQUARE GARDEN, and we got really excited talking about it, it was totally positive. I said before that it was “becoming a problem,” but on the other hand, I think the creators around me think providing music to VTubers is really interesting.
—Tokino-san, from your perspective, what do you think about this high affinity between VTubers and anime songs?
Sora: I do think there’s a high affinity. Anime songs and vocaloid song that are close to second dimension really do shine. And even if you’re making a PV [promotional video] for them, they’re easy to give expression to.
Oishi: Even with cover videos, vocaloid songs do really great.
Sora: It’s the same for anime songs too.
Oishi: There’s been a trend lately of not only covers, but songs being made for VTubers. There’s also the close relationship of VTubers to the club scene. This is another thing I’ve felt when taking a birds-eye view of the business.
Sora: I think I get that… My songs have been used in clubs before.
Oishi: I hear that DJs abroad are spinning VTuber music as well. It’s really a new era. I feel the movement of trackmakers from the anime song scene pouring rapidly into the VTuber scene too. From this scene, people like kz-kun, Inotakusan-san (Inoue Taku), and my kouhai Yashikin-kun. People in this space have started making music for VTubers, and they’re in the process of making a new scene. Because the music is strong, and the VTubers themselves are strong. I think they’ll get more and more popular and spread like wildfire.
—So they’re getting that much attention from creators. Oishi-san, from your perspective, what is it about VTubers that has potential?
Oishi: The fact that they make the most out of being digital and being virtual. Being real goes along with being physical, so you can’t just suddenly appear, and even otherworldly staging has its limits. For example, a shadow appearing in the middle of a darkened stage. If it’s a VTuber, they can suddenly appear and disappear.
—So staging is a strength for them too. And why do they have affinity with the club scene?
Oishi: A ton of club music is itself digital music, isn’t it? That, and I feel like the way the way VTuber music is made and mixed is really similar to trance music. So there’s that synergy, and I also feel like there’s a stylish element growing among VTuber fans. They’re coming in from the club scene, the upper classes of the school hierarchy, the preps1, people who are considered fashionable. I think VTubers and VTuber music has begun to reign as a fashion icon. Me saying this might be a problem but… Frankly, my impression is that VTubers are closer to the forefront of today’s trends than anime songs.
—Sora-san, how do you feel about this?
Sora: We don’t have a sense that we’re at the forefront of a trend. But actually, our music is being used a lot by DJs, and I myself was able to collaborate with the DJ Yunomi-san. And just like Oishi-san said, I feel like there’s been an increase in the amount of stylish boys attending our concerts.
—Are there places where your fans overlap?
Oishi: There might be. It’s possible that among Tokino-san’s fans, there might be some looking at my Twitter too.
Sora: I think there are! When I appeared on V-On!!, people were reacting with stuff like, “You get to go on with Oishi-san!”
Oishi: Really!?
Sora: There were lots people who like anime and tokusatsu happily tossing out song titles, saying, “He’s the guy who wrote that!”
Walking is a way to refresh yourself
—Sora-san, do you have anything you’d like to ask Oishi-san?
Sora: Oishi-san, you make a lot of songs. When do they come into being?
Oishi: I often write music while I’m in the living room of my house playing an acoustic guitar. A lot of times with lyrics it’ll be while I’m driving, transferring to the Shinkansen, times like this when I’m in the middle of a conversation and they just suddenly pop into my head. I don’t really get to choose a place when I’m making lyrics.
Sora: Do you have a way of refreshing yourself when you’re at a standstill?
Oishi: I’ve got two, taking a walk and sleeping. I actually take lots of walks. If I’m composing music at my house and I feel like I’m at a standstill, I quickly get outside. That’s why I can’t live somewhere where there’s no greenery. Like a big park nearby, or a path where you can take a walk.
Sora: It’s like your body is yearning for nature.
Oishi: That’s the thing about being from the sticks. It seems like no matter, I can’t get by when I’m surrounded by buildings.
Sora: I get what you’re saying. The buildings and everything else can be suffocating. It makes you feel like you’re being enclosed.
Oishi: Of course, there are people who like those kinds of places, but I’m the type of person who likes places surrounded by greenery. Also, sleep! I get a lot of “You seem busy, are you getting enough sleep?” but my sleep is one thing I’ve made a practice of maintaining. No matter how much homework has piled up, even if I have to put it off for the next day, I aim to go to bed at a reasonable hour. My theory is, “My brain not working is what’s gonna make me not able to put on a show. I’ll be wasting time on a single piece of work.” Counting backwards from when I’m waking up, I sleep six hours or more.
—How do you refresh yourself, Sora-san?
Sora: I really do like singing songs, so when I’m at home I’ll sing with all my power. Also, I’ll feel cramped being in the house, so…
Oishi: You get outside?
Sora: I do. I’ll try going all the way to the train station while I’m walking, that kind of thing. Making time to be by myself and take it easy might be what refreshes me. Lately I’ve been into visiting shrines.
Oishi: Visiting shrines, that’s a good interest to have. If I’ve got time before I have to be somewhere for work, I’ll drop in on a shrine or something. Although it gets the staff around me thinking, “That guy must have a lot of troubles.” It’s pretty good, isn’t it. It’s like, when you go to a shrine, it really straightens out your feelings.
Sora: I know that feeling. If I’ve got a little time open, I’ll stop by one too.
Oishi: It’s like a little power spot.
Turning collaborations into bridges between VTubers and anime, tokusatsu
—How will the VTuber world change after this?
Oishi: The potential of the technology that forms the “gate” between the virtual and the real will keep going up and up from now one. When that happens, things will become more free. The connection between the real and the virtual, and the way things exist in the virtual world.
Sora: I think it’ll become more real, so everyone will feel like “those Virtual YouTubers are alive!” even more than they do now. When that happens, I think we might be able to do shows in lots of places, because it’ll be easier for real people to be together with us.
Oishi: There’s been live viewing during concerts and performances lately, hasn’t there? To put it roughly, it’s just an image coming through a camera. But if we’re talking VTubers, they can jack into lots of venues at once. For example, like how Makuhari Messe and local venues arranged for holograms can gather fans together and perform for everyone at the same time. Not like it is with live viewing.
Sora: I think it can happen. Not that they’re exclusive to VTubers, but the number of venues specializing in VTubers is increasing.
Oishi: They are, venues for VTubers and ones geared towards streaming. I’ve seen more boxes of equipment arranged for LED backgrounds and things like that. I think that might become standard from now on.
Sora: That’d be interesting.
Oishi: It’ll be interesting, but from where a real person like me is standing, it’s gonna be a squeeze. Like my name will be disappearing from bookings (laughing).
Sora: No way!
Oishi: You said you wanted to cross lots of boundaries before. I’d like to keep moving anime music fests forward too.
Sora: I wanna sing anime songs!
Oishi: If you sang the opening of an anime, I think it’d become something really interesting.
Sora: I wanna…!
—You two could perform together.
Oishi: We could.
Sora: I’d like to!
Oishi: If that happened, would Tokino-san come into the real and perform as a VTuber? Or would I become a VTuber? There are two ways it could play out.
Sora: I’ve performed with the pianist and songwriter Marashii-san before. When we were doing that, Marashii-san would visit the virtual, and I’d go into the real. In the real, he let me sit on his piano.
Oishi: Sitting on Marashii-san’s piano! That’s a great image. For a VTuber, that is. If I tried to sit on his piano he’d just get angry (laughing).
Sora: I became about the size of your palm and got on.
Oishi: Incredible! Freedom with scaling is something else that’s really great about VTubers.
Sora: I think we could do either. I can come to the real too.
Oishi: We could do either. That’s interesting.
—What kind of performance would you do together?
Oishi: I’d do a concert together.
Sora: Yeah!
Oishi: I don’t know what kind of concert it’d be, but I wanna do it. Incidentally, the only avatar I’ve got is still the robot from V-On!! It’s got a very limited range of motion. The legs are belts, and I can only lift the arms 120 degrees.
Sora: But it’s got drills that come out.
Oishi: Yeah, it’s got these drill things that come out of it (laughing). It doesn’t even have hands, so in the virtual world I can’t play the guitar. Besides that, I’m also concerned about whether Tokino-san’s fans would accept me.
Sora: They were really happy when we appeared together on V-On!! There are also lots of people who enjoy your music. There are lots of people telling me, “Do a cover of Oishi-san’s songs!”
Oishi: Alright, so you cover one of my songs, so we can create a reason for me to be there. You can get people in the mood so that when I show up there won’t be any negative opinions coming out.
Sora: I don’t think there are any opinions like that in the first place, though (laughing). You’re welcome to join me.
— If you were going to cover one of Oishi-san’s songs, which would you do?
Sora: He sings the theme song for Ultraman R/B, doesn’t he? That song’s cool, I love it.
Oishi: Ahh, “Hands.” Seriously? Let’s do it together!
Sora: I don’t know if my voice works with it, but I wanna.
Oishi: You’ll become “Ultraman Sora.”
Sora: Yay!
Oishi: The people involved in Ultraman call me “Ultraman Slim” because I’m a little slender (laughing). Slim and Sora do the theme song for Ultraman R/B. Please invite me to do that.
Sora: Of course.
Oishi: I want VTubers to cross into tokusatsu and anime, so it’d make me happy if our collaborating became a bridge to do that. Streaming would be good too. Would that be the easiest way to do it?
Sora: I’d be really happy if you came to hang out on my stream, like the time Marashii-san and I collaborated. We did a session on the stream and I sang.
Oishi: That’s incredible. I’ll bring my acoustic guitar and we can hang out.
Sora: Awesome!
Oishi: Though the only avatar I’ve got in the virtual world is a robot.
Sora: They might be able to make a bunch of different models. They could make it so you’d be able to bring your guitar…
Oishi: That’s great. In that case I won’t be left with nothing to do (laughing)! It’s great that someone like me who’s also a fan can become a virtual being and support you in the virtual world too.
Sora: I’m sure it’ll be fun.
Oishi: That’s where things are headed. It’s like the fantasy world of OZ in Summer Wars. We can’t fall behind the times!
Sora: Oishi-san, you’re on the cutting edge! I hope that time will come. Thanks for talking with me today!
1 The term used here is youkya, which doesn’t imply wealth the way prep might but does mean people who are well-liked, successful, and at the top of the school social hierarchy
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